Was Naomi telling the truth?

It got me thinking this season ever since I viewed Naomi telling Dean and Cas that it was always gods intention that Sam were the sacrifice he was meant to die. Why had God planned this for Sam, what in particular had Sam got that he was so important to god in the first place. Was Sam being Lucifer’s vessel and the moment in sacrifice a possible link. We know John and Mary were meant to be from what Cupid threw our way. So god had knowledge of the boys way before they were ever born. So why in the long run was Sam ever the sacrifice, and not Adam/Dean as well? Was Lucifer a connection in gods mind that he thought Sam had to die in the end, no matter what. Was that what he wanted for his sons all along? What actions had his sons done, that even he wanted one of them dead?

Was Naomi telling Dean and Cas the truth?

Bella is digging deep here, to ascertain why the boys are so popular with God, and that he really wanted Sam to die in the trial, as he after all planned this as part of the trial all along. Was Naomi as Cas said telling the truth. Was it to get them both on side to stop Sam from finishing the trail and closing heaven for good. Was there more to these trials than really met the eye? Did God want Sam out of the way, so the he would never finish the job? Is God so powerful that he can see into the future and put plans in place?

Type away as ever, and help us establish why God wanted Sam to die, as I for one would love to know the answer to this? As I don’t like God so much if he wanted to see Sam die after all his hard work. Was he a nice man after all? If these were his plans of action, what plans had he got in line for Dean, or even Cas.

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11 thoughts on “Was Naomi telling the truth?

  1. So, I like all of your theories and ideas, but I’ve got one that’s had me a little stumped. Naomi has been inside of a lot of the angel’s heads, correct? If not all of them. Does this mean she’s been inside Lucifer and Michael’s heads, too? Or were the Archangels just untouchable and they were actually thinking on their own? I’d hate to find out that Lucifer, or any of the Archangels were programmed to act a certain way and not have a mind of their own to do as they please. Really sort of ruins the idea of having angels on the show for me. Demons have orders and such, but now, it’s seeming like they have more free will than the angels. Any who, I’m hoping that the Archangels weren’t played with by Naomi, if any of you can shed some light on that question for me. Secondly, I’m sure we’ve all tried to think of the answer to this one. What of the Colt? What are the 5 things it can’t kill? Angels are one of them because Lucifer personally tells Sam that in the episode “Abandon All Hope”.
    Firstly Cisco welcome to the gang, its always great to see new blood. Yes she sure did 😉 Lucifer and Michael are still locked in the cage. Many fans were wondering if Ezekiel/Gadreel was actually Lucifer but this has fallen flat. I think all angels are programmed which was one of the reasons why Cas began to have doubts, and not obey orders. Demons are very different to angels. With Abaddon running riot in hell, and Crowley being held captive by the Winchesters I think all demons soon will be ordered to sort themselves out. Having no order in hell has allowed them to run a muck. I am surprised actually that the boys have kept Crowley so long, wondering what demons might be up to topside.

    But what are the other 4 things it can’t kill? My guess is that it can’t kill Leviathan, hell-hounds, and that’s honestly as far as I’ve gotten. I can’t think of any other two things it wouldn’t be able to kill. Thirdly, in season 8, they find out Lucifer had crypts and they find the Angel Tablet in the one they go to. Which makes me wonder, when Lucifer arrived in season 5, why didn’t he just go back to his crypt and do the angel trials? He would’ve brought down all the angels from heaven and after completing that mission, he could literally “purify” the Earth from all the humans and angels that are on it now. Sounds a lot easier than what he originally was doing and having to go fight Michael to settle some rivalry that they’ve got going on. He’d literally have the world to himself seeing as he also hates his own creation, the demons, and would have ended up massacring them as well. Those are just some of my thoughts. Hoping someone can help me out with answering some of them. Have a nice day!
    I have had a good search through Super-wiki and can’t find the information about what the Colt can’t kill. If memory serves me correctly. I think its the four archangels; the four horsemen, God and The Leviathans. See barb’s note above the answer is there.

    Thank you, do come back you have some interesting idea’s
    Love Aunty B xxx

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    1. “when Lucifer arrived in season 5, why didn’t he just go back to his crypt and do the angel trials?”

      The tablets were warded against angels. Rememeber, Cas needed Dean to take it out because he couldnt due to the warding.

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  2. Can we believe Naomi or was she spinning a yarn for her own purposes? That is the question. Always ask what is the motivation of the character. Was it to get Dean to go back to Sam so Cas would be alone in hopes she could once again get him under her”wing”? She is not particularly fond of humans, but she may have had her programming re-set and gets it that angels were there to protect man kind. Since the show is heavy on Biblical references, it got me to think about God(Old Testament) asking Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, only to provide a substitute at the last moment, in order to test Abraham’s allegiance. Was it a test of Dean’s allegiance to his brother, Sam that all along was planned to be stopped at the last moment, by Dean’s sacrificing his goal of closing the Gates of Hell and getting his vengeance on all the”evil sons of bitches” that killed their Mom and Jessica? Was it to force Dean and Sam to “come clean” about their brotherly bond?Throughout the Bible there are trials/ tests so maybe our perception of Sam as the sacrifice is a reflection of Dean’s sacrifice.
    I still can’t trust her something in me screams NO! What reason would she have again of winning Cas round though. Would he come willingly even under duress now that Dean broke her spell? It wouldn’t have surprised me if she got at Dean in some way as he is the boys crutch. Both Sam and Cas rely heavily on Dean, and she must know that? It would be one way of capturing Cas and may be use Dean as bait? Yes the story does revolve around the bible, and like your theory. It could be, there is that chance of her manipulating that plan. Why would the angels be interested in the brothers relationship, I would say their primary concern is the brothers not interfering with heaven and closing them in for ever? I would still like to think there is a story in here some where for Dean, he is after all the righteous man and if Cas got away, Dean is the key to keep on side.

    (New Testament has the ultimate sacrifice, but not sure how to analyze it with the story line at the moment.) The Old Testament God is vengeful, the New Testament God is about redemption. Has Sam been redeemed and made pure? Is Dean a reflection of the OT and Sam of the NT? The trials took their toll of Sam perhaps because of his blood chemistry, but Dean may have also been affected as the trials seem to “have damaged Sam on a sub atomic level” which even Cas cannot fix, so it is profound no matter who attempted them. Remember Kevin said whoever did the trials might have his spine ripped out of his mouth- this would be Sam or Dean. The priest did not die from the exorcism, but from Abaddon, but remember he was not performing all 3 trials just the exorcism. Sam did all three so the result could have been death. The trials were supposedly written by Metatron just before God checked out if we believe that the tablets are the word of God- written as safety levers for mankind- so IMO it is a heavenly plan with some free will always coming into play to make a choice at the moment of ultimate sacrifice. Hellitus- True Anecdote:
    Its the Sub Atomic Level that concerns me. How is Sam going to be cured in the long run, if Cas can’t help him. Naomi is dead so she is out of the question, would Metatron may be cure him? So either way we look at this Sam will end up Dead whether he completed the trials or not 😦 Is this why he was having trouble breathing because his spine is being ripped out? Had Metatron written those words all along, and not GOD he never had a say or a part to play in it? They seem to be making a big hullabaloo about Metatron, and he’s back for more episodes so it could be possible.

    Day off of work today and I went out to get out coffee at a diner.(not Big Ger son’s). While waiting a couple approached me to ask me if I knew the Winchester brothers. I said yes, but was hesitant to say more. The guy says”I could tell by your clothing and silver ring” The gal says” could tell by the confident way you ordered coffee and that funky necklace.” I said thanks and moved on. Strange. Okay, I was wearing jeans, a black t shirt with a khaki/plaid over shirt, but I am not a dude or gay. I had full makeup, a bracelet and a heart necklace and a silver colored ring. Must have been channeling DW on some sub atomic level. I did check out their eye color and there was no sulfur on the floor.;-)Chalked it up to the weirdness of life and other fans wanting to see something that wasn’t there because of Hellitus. Thought you fellow bloggers would get a kick out of this one. Going to make my own coffee at home for awhile as one can never be to careful these days.
    Debbab, that is so spooky. What chances is there of someone coming up to you and saying do you know the WB. May be he was chatting you up 😉 That’s it they were picking up on you DW vibes and were investigating!!! 🙂 Cool story for a Friday morning …. Be careful you were right not to stay and chat, don’t no what they were up to. Made me laugh though …..

    Thank you for the comments,
    Love Aunty B xxxx

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    1. I don’t know, guys. I think you guys are over thinking this. I certainly don’t think the writers themselves are as deep as you guys are getting on here. I get the impression they may not have actually read the Bible either.
      May be, so you think its mostly fantasy? interesting …

      As a side note, I do think Sam was purified. If we work forward from the idea that Crowley was not faking it, then that means that Sam’s blood was working and that it has been purified because only purified blood can cure a demon.
      But I always understood from the boys you should never trust a demon, so with this knowledge this was why I thought he’d be faking it. Also I couldn’t see Crowley giving up his thrown as the King of hell with out some fight. It would feel too easy. But also the spell was never fully completed so would it have worked which was my second argument?

      The more I look at the finale I still get the impression that Sam’s illness is not from the trials but from the fall of the angels. If we work backwards from the idea that Sam was resonating with the word of God and Metatron , then maybe what he was feeling towards the end was the closing of Heaven and the fall of all those angels. Remember, the glow on his arms dissipated and then at around that time Heaven would have closed when he let out his gasp and briefly lost consciousness. He woke up when the first angel landed in the water nearby.
      Cas said earlier on during the trials that heaven and hell are connected. So with this thought the angels fall had connected with me thinking there was more to this, much more. Considering I always jumped at the chance about Sam becoming an angel. I did however, lately think he could be a prophet of God, connected to God in some way?

      I got the impression that he was feeling what the angels were feeling as they fell. If that’s the case I think it’s kind of neat that he would have this connection to the angels. It’s a talent that would certainly come in handy if he could tell angels from humans, especially since Cas is now fully human and no longer has any angelic connections. If Cas is fully human and Sam has such an ability then he would know right away what happened to Cas too.
      Yes, me too. Would the angels arms glow perhaps? Would Sam know if he passed an angel, that he would in fact be an angel? There was something also that the nepilim said to Cas and Metatron that she could see their halo’s she knew what they were? So it might be the same for Sam? Oh god, what if Sam is a Nepilim … He’s almost got like a six sense then!

      And speaking of the angels, if Naomi is correct then the fallen angels are going to be like Lucifer. They will have their memories and grace and probably some amount of power as well, just like Lucifer. They are just barred from Heaven with all of their abilities and minds intact. Also after watching the end you realize that Cas memories are completely intact. he knew the angels were going to fall before they did and he was ready for it.

      There something so orderly about how they fell too. Almost like it was to a strict time? Like a drum beat almost. I wonder how earth will cope with millions of angels and that begs the question how will they get back home? Will humans panic and cause some riot?

      Also people keep asking about Jimmy, Cas’ host. I’m of the opinion that Jimmy is no longer part of the equation. I had the impression in season five that Jimmy had offered his body to Cas and then moved on or went to Heaven, but that may be incorrect. I’m going to have to watch The Rapture again.
      I think so too, I would hate to think of Jimmy still being a trooper in their and not being able to live his life. It would be fitting if he was some how at rest in heaven. That was a superb episode, one for the summer I think.

      This is all just logical assumptions and my humble opinion, based on what the characters have said and taking what’s said at face value.
      Okay. I already typed this message out to you, and there is a button on the mouse where your thumb goes and its a previous page button, my thumb accidentally hit it and lost all you previous answers so I had to type the damn out again …. 😦

      Thank you for the comments,
      Love Aunty B xxxx

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      1. I don’t know. The spell seemed to be working if you believe Crowley wasn’t faking it. If he wasn’t faking it then Sam’s blood has been purified. The demon in the other episode began to slowly come around and not only that but the priest survived the ordeal which makes me think that Sam dying and being sick like that was just something unique to Sam.
        Just that, it SEEMED to be working. It was all on the surface! I still wonder if Sam was actually chosen to do these trials, as we’ve talked about if Dean had done them would these affects which are happening to Sam have also happened to Dean in the same way. Which is an answer to your question yes, I think its unique to Sam. I strongly feel there was a reason for the glowing arms. I hope he is being purified cause if it turns out he isn’t what will this do to Sam mentally also. He is pinning so much on this happening?

        Now if you believe Crowley was faking it then a whole new set of circumstances and thoughts result from that. But I’m going to give the writers the benefit of the doubt and take it as I saw it. How long Crowley will remain cured is up for discussion since as you say the trial wasn’t finished.
        So if we think along the lines he was faking it, the priests work failed. It didn’t work cause Sam never completed the spell. So either way Crowley isn’t fully human. Is he a hybrid demon, more human or less demonic. How will he actually get himself back to what he once was? Either way … He will feel something in him is missing.

        Also I’m not beyond Sam having Nephilim powers. But in order to be a Nephilim wouldn’t he have to have been born part angel. That would make Dean a half brother as they would have separate fathers right? I had the impression that Nephilim were born and not made although there’s nothing in canon to say they couldn’t be made. Just like there’s not really anything in canon to say the brothers have the same father either.
        Yes, true but whose to say Dean isn’t one either too. I have sensed for a long time that both brothers are not human. That there was something much more to both boys being vessels of Michael and Lucifer. Dean is the righteous man after all which has slipped of fans radar. Sometime ago we even thought on the forum that Dean could in fact be Jesus. Now that’s a very wild shot in the dark. But Metatron’s words knowing what Sam was happening to Sam continued me on this path that Sam is not all he seem’s. The thought of them being half brother fills me with dread, as I don’t want necessarily an Adam theory on our hands. These boys are blood brothers through and through, and for the writers to changed that pact now would be horrible. But its mind blowing to ponder the thought.

        Thank you for the comments,
        Love Aunty B xxxx

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        1. “Just like there’s not really anything in canon to say the brothers have the same father either”
          Well for him to be a nephalim his mother would have had to mate with an angel….I don’t think that happened.

          Probably right, I have so gone off that idea!

          Thank you for the comments,
          Love Aunty B xxxx

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  3. “I didn’t see Sam’s sacrifice as any more than the usual manipulation by the angels and when Naomi mentioned it I took it to mean that ANYONE that took on the trials would have died. That Sam wasn’t necessarily special that way.”

    I think THIS is correct.
    Possibly ….

    Thank you for the comments,
    Love Aunty B xxxx

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  4. I think she was telling the truth. I think when God created the tablets and trials he wanted to make sure that they weren’t taken lightly and that it had to be a very extreme situation to use them. It seems fitting that the person doing them has to sacrifice himself to get them done. If there was no sacrifice then whats the point? Anyone can do them.
    I get this, but I still think there is something in the story that involves Sam in some way, as we no the story does seem to center around him. He’s closely connected with hell any way and has never strayed to far from those parallels. Demons have been guarding him his whole life, and if he was to succeed in these trials the demons would have Sam again where they always wanted him. Could they be going back to this story about Sam being the king of hell. As Crowley is also involved with these trials surprisingly, the more I think about this. Why was Crowley the third trial? Why did it end up with Sam curing Crowley?

    This is OT but I was watching Goodbye Stranger and was thinking about Meg with the dyed blond hair. I thought it was a weird thing for Crowley to do and then I thought maybe it was the writers giving a shout out to the original BLOND Meg!
    Well thought out, could well have been a novel idea. It was wired that she suddenly turned blonde with out explanation. May be she just fancied a change, as girls do! 😉 Nice thought though.

    Thank you for the comments,
    Love Aunty B xxxx

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  5. I never got the impression that God had anything to do with Sam being the one to close the gates of Hell. I thought there was a bit of poetry in it that the one who would have unleashed Hell on earth as Lucifer’s vessel, should also get to be the one to shut down Hell, but never got the impression that God was behind that. I always just sort of dismissed what Naomi said as being her opinion and therefore inconsequential.
    So how come Naomi said to Dean that he always wanted Sam to be the sacrifice almost like it was written in the stars that it was meant to be? It was the way she new the way she replied to Dean like it was meant.

    I didn’t see Sam’s sacrifice as any more than the usual manipulation by the angels and when Naomi mentioned it I took it to mean that ANYONE that took on the trials would have died. That Sam wasn’t necessarily special that way.
    But then if Dean had done the trial would that not have complicated matters? When Sam proceeded with the spell it wouldn’t let Dean complete that trail. It would only let Sam carry on. Which says to me, the trial could have been meant for Sam all along. As it only let the person do the trial whom it new to be the right person? So could he have been chosen all along?

    But now that I think about it, it’s possible that if anyone else had done the trials they might have lived. After all the trials require a purity that Sam lacked. he’s been infused with gallons of demon blood and it was that cleaning out of his system that was killing him. I mean after all the demon blood is cleaned from his system, just how much of the real ,human part of Sam would be left? After all, that priest, who performed a purification didn’t die from it. The sickness was just unique to Sam and his demon infused circumstances. It really makes me wonder, if Dean had done the trials would he have died or even been sick while doing them.
    It also makes me think even if Dean did the trial I don’t think he would have suffered in the same painful way that Sam clearly has. Because of the demon blood. Dean is pure human where as Sam is unique. There is something with Sam being connected with hell that he was chosen to do those trials. Because he has the demon blood in him. So could he have been connected all along. He was connected to Azazel, which made me think God would have known about this, and had set that trial for Sam to be allowed to Chanel it and only him alone. As we know the show has nearly always been primarily about Sam, and his connections with hell, and who is performing the hell trials, one young man by the name of Sam. 🙂

    Thank you for the comments,
    Love Aunty B xxxx

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    1. I’m of the opinion that anyone could have done the trial because the tablet didn’t say a special/particular person had to be found to shut the gates of hell; just that whoever took on the trials was the only one who’d be able to complete them because after each trial you take in a little more power to do so.

      Same w/ the Levi tablet; Dean killed the head Levi but I don’t think he was the chosen one to do that; he’s just the one that happened to be the one that did the deed.

      If Dean had killed the hell hound in T&E then it would have been him; and my guess is Dean wouldn’t have gotten as ill since it seemed the illness had to do w/ the power of heaven cleansing the demon blood out of Sam’s system; granted that’s just speculation based on scenes from The Great Escapist.

      I took Naomi’s words as general; that if the gates of hell (and maybe heaven too?) were to be closed then God wanted that person to make the ultimate sacrifice to do so. That Naomi said Sam because it was Sam doing them at the time. No one said or suggested that Sam was destined to close the gates so I think the fact that Sam MAY benefit from a demon blood cleansing and that he happened to be the one to do them was nothing more then circumstance. It was sort of poetic that he might close the gates, but IMO it wasn’t necessarily destined for him.

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      1. “It was sort of poetic that he might close the gates, but IMO it wasn’t necessarily destined for him”
        I agree-it was just one of those things. I think at one point Deans ays Ill go gank another hellhound and I will do the trials and Sam talks him into letting him do them.

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