Sam’s soul?

Putting up the thread yesterday about vessels got me thinking about soulless Sam. Many thought Soulless Sam was a sociopath,  and Dean rapped Sam in putting his soul back without his consent. Both are very, very strong points. Now we all no Sam was not Sam when he did those terrible things, wanting to kill Bobby to keep his soul out. Almost succeeding in killing that cop. So when we look at a person more closely without a soul. What do we actually see? Many loved soulless Sam, proving he was so much better them limp Sam the real version we were dealt. But others on the flip side loathed soulless Sam, as the real McCoy would not act in this brutal way towards others, and not have any feeling towards Dean, his brother, what so ever. Remembering particularly letting Dean get turned into a Vamp, when he knew fine well that there was a cure. Then when the process returned Dean, he was all like hey bro, welcome home.

Was Soulless Sam actually something worse than a Sociopath?

So was soulless Sam a sociopath? 

A person with a personality disorder, manifesting itself into extreme antisocial behavior, and a lack of conscience.

My two cents worth are if Sam had no soul, how could he feel about certain things like for instance talking to Bobby and understanding he did not want this other guy the real Sam back in. What lengths he would go to, and to get Balti involved also. He knew how to do this stuff without the real Sam on board. Being an impostor  and living this other guy for six months without any one really understanding whom he was. Could Sam have really survived without his soul? I think this is a really tricky question, as it was okay for a side project to show us a person living without a soul, but full-time soulless Sam wouldn’t have been on the cards for me personally. So was this guy a man without a conscience. I think we can say he certainly was. How would we act and feel without our consciences. Would we no right from wrong for example. Would we no whom our loved ones were. Could we kill someone at will for the fun of it, and not blink an eye lid in doing so. Or is a sociopath a lot deeper than this? What had our writers got right, or wrong?

Could we kill someone at will for the fun of it, and not blink an eye lid in doing so.

At what point did Soulless Sam realize there was something very wrong with him? Would he have come clean if Dean hadn’t have beaten him into a pulp first? Look at it another way, could Dean have coped with Sam if he hadn’t of put Sam’s soul back. How had Dean coped with this man that was his brother, who wasn’t his brother, an impostor who resembled his brother, just a mere shell of the man he loved. But whom didn’t love him back. Now after researching a bit about soulless Sam I had come across this business of Dean rapping Sam, where do we stand as an audience looking at it from Sam’s point of view. We no Sam wasn’t in his right frame of mind, and he didn’t want the thing back under any circumstances. But in the end didn’t have a lot of choice. So could he have protested and preached about not wanting it. Would Dean have actually listened to Sam, and here what he had to say? Seeing this from Dean’s point of view, I could sense that he was doing what he thought was right. That when it all came clean that Sam would recognize that he was doing his brotherly duty, in getting his soul back in one piece. The real Sam, would have I think gladly wished for this to happen. So I don’t see this as rape? Any thoughts here guys?

Was Soulless Sam lying to Dean?

Bella has some grey material to play with here, and not a nice topic to consider. But so much could have gone right with soulless Sam. In some parts I think the writers dealt us with an okay story, but still felt a bit disjointed. It went on for too long, and subsequently I think it lost its passion and drive for what could have been an epic tale to tell. At least we happened to view a very different side of Sam. I wonder what Dean would have been like without a soul, and if Sam had tried to do what Dean did in getting it back, to its rightful owner. 

How did Sam really feel deep down about
what he did when he was soulless?

So type away little ones, as I think this could be an interesting thread, from a discussion point of view. Have you actually known anyone without a conscience, and did you think our writers portrayed Soulless Sam correctly? Had Dean raped Sam in putting back his soul, and was soulless Sam worse than a Sociopath? How did we sense the real Sam handled things once he knew he’d spent 18 months away, and six months soulless. Would he have been any the wiser?

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8 thoughts on “Sam’s soul?

  1. The soul is what makes us human in some religious circles. Animals do not have souls in some religious circles in other religious circles every sentient being has a soul. Dean acted as Sam’s soul/conscience to keep him on the human side of the ledger. Dean had seen Sam turn into a monster under the demon blood. Sam admits in “Good God Y’all”(season 5) that it is something in him besides the demon blood that made him make choices. Under the influence of demon blood, Sam went so far as to let Ruby slice the nurse so Sam could drink the demon blood and Sam hesitates but then when he hears the superimposed message Ruby created from Dean telling him he is lost to the dark side, he buys into it even with his soul but it is tarnished now, he feels and cannot turn back. And he sees himself as not fit for hunting as he is too dangerous. His soul/emotions are not right as season 5 goes on marching toward Swan Song. I think this is what motivates Sam to let Lucifer in and sacrifice himself into the pit. He is atoning. Flash to season 6.
    That moment when they were sitting on that picnic bench really broke me. I felt so sad for Sam 😦 But what else could be inside him as well as the demon blood. We all can’t hide behind things, as many fans would say this. They are tired of something wrong with Sam. But I can see this logic I always have with the demon blood. Now that phone message has done the rounds on the forum so many times and I still have no clue who intercepted that phone whether it was Ruby or Zachariah, many said Zachariah. Again both boys never did find out about this, and was an awful thing for her if Ruby to do. This reminds me of what Dean did to Sam in season 8.

    So even if Sam had no soul, it was still Sam and he seemed to have a memory of feelings from the past as he gazed in on Lisa and Dean Soulless Sam is ruthless and super focused. A sociopath has no ability to empathize-either did Sam. Gordon and Martin go over the edge-had they become so consumed that their focus was so intense that they became insane? Sam goes off to face his own”demons” for a while tin season 5, but again realizes he cannot escape who he is but he can control his dark side. In season 6 he has no soul to keep him in check- sociopath- he does what needs to be done to get the job done even if dean has to become a vampire for a while. Dean is correct in not trusting Sam after Ruby, and it pans out. Again, this guilt comes out in season 8 finale. Sam was awake when he was soulless. He knows he is a super-hunter without the soul and fears he will be a liability to Dean- a mushy head case or dead- if it is put back and I do not believe he is capable of making the decision for himself since he is so focused on everything but himself-. Even though it is Dean arranges for Death to unite Sam with his soul, it is Sam who does the mental work at putting together the pieces of his psyche. Sam could have chosen to stop the process at any given step but Sam being Sam he finishes the unification even though it costs him his sanity. I guess he figured if dean could survive remembering Hell, he could too so he takes that chance and he knows he is too risky to be with if he stays soulless. So did he do it for Dean in the end? I’m all over the place in this writing . Sorry. It must be the heat and humidity. All I know is that Jared did an amazing performance as soulless Sam.
    I will never forget that look on his face. The forum where so horrible to Sam when this happened and even only a couple of weeks ago, said that he didn’t give too hoots about Dean, he was only outside there house because Cas plonked him there. But that look said it all to me. How sensitive he looked, and thrilled that his brother had abide by his wishes before going into the pit. He had done what he’d asked. I think Cas was annoyed however, that he turned on his heels and didn’t knock on the front door. Oh I can well see why Dean didn’t trust Sam, I don’t think even Sam trusted himself. I think its an interesting story when we understand what both of the boys went through during this time even any other time. When you think what Sam’s mind has been through how does he actually function, think and generally work. How mushed up his head and soul have been. Any normal human would have gone spare by now. He is heck of a hero and doesn’t even no it. I do admire these writers for their imagination if nothing else. 😉

    Thanks for the comments, always
    Love Aunty B xxxxxxxx

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  2. I enjoy the Spock comparison and see that it can relate…but I also think that soulless Sam can be a representation of hunters taking it too far. Throughout seasons I think both Sam and Dean developed a sense of compassion for certain ‘monsters’ that were able to control themselves. Mainly some vampires, shape shifters, and skin walkers. I think that soulless Sam could be representative of the part of a hunter that takes his ‘job’ way overboard by practically becoming a true ‘serial killer…’
    You no what, I actually remember saying now that Sam with Martin was acting like he was when he was soulless. His anger, jeez I have known him mad, but not that he wouldn’t even give Benny a chance. The way he also attacked that cop, he’s also gone for Dean too, and I always wondered about his demon blood, if this had something to do with his anger, as over the years he has got more highly strung over the slightest thing now. Sam always has had a temper.

    Thanks for the comments, always
    Love Aunty B xxxxxxxx

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    1. ” I think that soulless Sam could be representative of the part of a hunter that takes his ‘job’ way overboard by practically becoming a true ‘serial killer…’”
      Kind of like what happened with Martin. He was so intent on killing the vampire he put Elizabeth in danger.

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      1. That very much reminds me of Gordon too. He was a completely pitiless hunter of vampires and totally unwilling to listen to any reasons or extenuating circumstances. Even when it came to hunting another hunter -Sam.
        There was something in Gordon that was cleverly written. I think that’s what made Gordon stand out from the crowd that he would stop at nothing to get the job done. I think that’s what I liked about him that him came across this way, and that’s all power and down to the actor. He was one cold guy. When he killed his mate in the motor van I thought its the end of Gordon. I still find I cannot watch Sam killing Gordon, I can’t blame Sam one bit, but I still get shivers watching it. I think Gordon was a special bad guy, that got turned into the thing he hunted for a living. And was bitter sweet to see him get his comeuppance. I truly so wanted Gordon to come back in purgatory and be a demon either Dean or Sam faced, it would have been brilliant to watch.

        I like that idea of the demon blood being responsible for a lot of Sam’s anger over the years. Remember when he talked about that in Sam Interrupted. Then compare that conversation to the one in The Great Escapist about being pure. To me that is just a continuance of that conversation and it explains a lot of Sam’s Interactions with his dad and brother and his hatred of the yellow eyed demon and Lilith. He was never pure and neither was his emotions.
        I have wondered Ikeke what the demon blood has done to Sam. I’ve probably said it before on this blog. What would it have been like for Sam if he hadn’t have had any in him. We cannot compare this as we have never seen him without any blood. But I bet it tainted his whole wiring, and body language, he must be demon hybrid by now, the long the blood is within him. I love how these writers to back track and do pick up on the show’s history. I hope to god he’s purified for his sake as if not, will Sam cope? if not!

        As the trials purged his demon blood from him all these emotions came out of the closet too. Maybe this will lead to Sam being more open and upfront about how he feels. In the past he was always trying to get Dean to open up while holding his feelings closed. I hope that will change.
        I wonder if this is why he tend to lie a lot, I wonder if this is behind it all? I don’t know who finds it harder to show their feelings out of Sam or Dean, both of them seem to pent up stuff to much. When you think about it, who do they really have to talk to, only each other they have no outside influences now even with Bobby gone. Awwwwh …. 😉

        I also feel like as Sam was becoming physically pure that Sacrifice episode was about becoming emotionally pure. An attempt to start to release all this negative buildup of emotions Sam’s been carrying all these years. That when Dean said “let it go “, he didn’t just mean the trials he meant all of the emotional baggage Sam’s been carrying since the beginning. I like to believe this but don’t know how the writers will play that in 9.
        I bet there is so much in his soul that has gone through the mill. I cannot imagine how much stuff he hasn’t even discussed. I loved how Dean said Let it go, and how he managed to get Sam off that ledge. What a state he was in to not even care if he lived or died. I really do feel for these guys when the writers allow them to let out this baggage. It makes great drama.

        Thanks for the comments, always
        Love Aunty B xxxxxxxx

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        1. Also I hope that as we’ve witnessed Dean’s new and growing maturity and self acceptance this season we will see a corresponding maturity in Sam and the two of them can move into a healthier relationship not just with each other but their support group too.
          As long as we don’t have as much heavy angst. That really took it out of me 😉 I read those Winchester family business notes and found I understood this season so much better than what I did before. I think I did enjoy a lot of this season, now I understand where the pent anger was coming from 😉 I had an idea but wasn’t certain. How these boys are still vertical after all these years is beyond me. They are so dysfunctional. And hard to understand.

          I also hope next season that they pick up a couple more new friends. Especially Sam.
          I so want Sam to have a friend, as Dean has had Cas, Benny, even Charlie and Kevin Garth too to a point. Have all relied on him. I so wanted Sam to chat up Jody, and be support to each other as they’ve all, been through so much. I want a mature person for Sam, not some comic relief like Garth. He’s okay, but I want some one who’s on Sam’s level, if you not what I mean.

          Thanks for the comments, always
          Love Aunty B xxxxxxxx

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        2. “also feel like as Sam was becoming physically pure that Sacrifice episode was about becoming emotionally pure. An attempt to start to release all this negative buildup of emotions Sam’s been carrying all these years. That when Dean said “let it go “, he didn’t just mean the trials he meant all of the emotional baggage Sam’s been carrying since the beginning. I like to believe this but don’t know how the writers will play that in 9.”
          I like that idea!

          Me too barb ….

          Love B xxxx

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  3. I was actually okay with Soulless Sam up to a point. I didn’t see him as a psycho or sociopath. I thought of him in the sort of the same way I think about Spock, with the added effect of not caring about people’s emotions. For me that was really the only difference between him and Spock. I saw Soulless Sam as an utterly pragmatic creature that was completely and logically focused on specific goals and was willing to do whatever it took to accomplish said goal, regardless of other people’s feelings. The difference is that Spock isn’t selfish but is focused and logical.
    So he did no who Dean was? This was what I got about Soulless Sam too. That he was driven to see the job done no matter who or what got in his way, like the cop. I bet Samuel didn’t bank on that one happening. Does the brain continue to work without your soul. I mean to the point of knowing what you do is right or wrong. He must have known what he was doing was so wrong?

    Also there’s a part of me that enjoyed seeing Sam be a complete bada**. Sort of like Dean when he came back from Purgatory. We often forget just how formidable a hunter Sam is and Soulless Sam was like watching a force of nature sometimes. Beautiful but terrifying! Like a giant praying mantis. He was a pitiless creature that was totally uninformed by any kind of sentiment like a tornado or an earthquake.
    I can’t begin to imagine how Sam felt when he eventually got his soul back, and with time understood what he had done whilst he was soulless. That must have made him tremble inside. Would he have remembered anything at all? Sort of visions of what may have gone down? In some ways it was quite an interesting concept imagining what it would be like without a soul, and how he went about his daily life and the after effects and ramifications of it all. I applaud the writers for going there and experimenting with it.

    Nevertheless I can see where some people would find him upsetting. Dean certainly did. It would have sort of felt like having a member of your family replaced with a body snatcher or a giant insect. We all knew something was wrong with Sam but had no real clue as to what. (A testament to Jared’s acting skills.)
    I no, I just wondered why it took Dean so long to figure out what was wrong with his bro, usually he is so upbeat about this stuff. At the I time I didn’t overly think a lot to Jared’s acting but when you do look back, I think he carried it of well with the script he was give. I recall Jensen at the time saying they both didn’t no that Sam was even soulless. I love how you look back and pick up on expressions you’ve missed before. You can tell how Jared was trying to put it all across I just have to look at certain photos and say that was when he was soulless. So credit to him, he nailed the look.

    Thanks for the comments, always
    Love Aunty B xxxxxxxx

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  4. I wasn’t a fan of the Soulless Sam storyline. It certainly went on too long. I understood he had no soul but he still had a brain. Psychopaths KNOW whats right and wrong they just don’t care…I would have liked to see Sam struggle more with the decisions he made-like letting Dean turn into a Vampire-he had to know that if Dean fed before they gave him the cure he couldn’t be cured. I really hated Sam that episode. I couldn’t understand how he could do that to Dean when I’m sure his BRAIN told him it wasn’t a good thing to do
    I tend to see the don’t care about a psychopath, but I still get there was something in Sam, the way he looked in on Dean and Lisa. I know Cas dumped there but the shell of Sam sensed I think whom Dean was. It must have been so hard for Sam, knowing how much Sam with a soul loves Dean. The whole Vamp thing still makes me feel sick, and it was meant to shock, and it worked. They drew the whole thing out way too long, and didn’t flesh area’s out as well as they could have. May be the brain works differently without a soul present. May be the too are connected. I don’t recall liking any area of soulless Sam, simply because it wasn’t him. We new it wasn’t him, but at least it wasn’t as bad as this season. As there was a definitive reason why he was ooc.

    Thanks for the comments as always,
    Love Aunty B xxxxx

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