What was gods real motif regarding the Winchester brothers?

A couple of thoughts from early season 4?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBT8_U7X9jY

 

Sam: Well then tell me what else it could have been

Dean: Look all I know is I got out, and I was groped by an angel

Sam: Look Dean why do you think this Castiel would lie to you about it

Dean: Maybe cause he’s some kind of demon, demons lye

Sam: A demon who’s immune to salt rounds, and Devils trap’s and Ruby’s knife, Dean Lilith is sacred of that thing

Dean: Don’t you think that if angels were real that some hunter somewhere would have seen one at some point, EVER!

Sam: Yeah, you just did Dean

Dean: I’m trying to come up with a theory here, work with me

Sam: Dean we have a theory

Dean: Yeah, one with a little less fairy dust on it okay

Sam: Okay, I’m not saying for sure but just saying that I think we

Dean: Okay, Okay, that’s the point, if we don’t know for sure, so I’m not going to believe that this thing is some angel of the lord. Because it says so.

Bobby: You two chuckle heads wanna keep arguing religion. You wanna come and take a look at this.  I’ve got stacks of lore, biblical pre-biblical and some of its in damn cuneiform. It says an angel can save a soul from the pit

Dean: What else

Bobby: What else

Dean: What else can do it?

Bobby: Air lifts your but out of the hot box, far as I can tell, nothing!

Sam: Dean this is good news

Dean: How

Sam: For once this isn’t just another round of demon crap, I mean may be you were saved by one of the good guys you no……

Dean: Okay, say it’s true, say there are angels and what there’s a god.

Bobby: At this point beggar’s money is on you

Dean: yeah, I don’t know guys

Sam: I know you’re not all choir boy about this stuff, Dean but this is becoming less and less about faith and more and more about proof

Dean: Proof

Sam: Yes,

Dean: proof that there’s a god out there that actually gives a crap about me personally. I’m sorry but I’m not buying it.

Dean’s not buying it, obviously Sammy is ….

Sam: Look, Why not?

Dean: Because why me Hey if there was a god out there why would he give a CRAP about me?

Sam: Dean

Dean: Because I’ve saved some people okay, I figured that made up for the stealing, the dishing and chicks, why do I deserve to get saved; I’m just a regular guy

Sam: Apparently, you’re the regular guy that’s important to the man upstairs;

Dean: Well that creep’s me out. I don’t like getting singled out at birthday parties but much less by god

Sam: Okay too bad Dean, because I think he wants you to strap on your party hat

Dean: Cough’s okay fine what do we know about angels

Bobby passes over a pile of books: Start reading

Dean: You’re going to get me some PIE! And Dean snatches a book of the pile and walks off in a huff.

We come on to Are you there, God? It’s Me, Dean Winchester which I really loved, as it show cased Dean in his reluctance to believe in angels, and of course God. He felt awkward about being prize picked and hated the thought of being singled out. Even worse by the man himself. Why was Dean so unsure of believing in religious beings, when he’d already met Castiel, so if that unsavoury thought had come true and he’s seen it with his own eyes, why did he have even more of a hell of a time believing in the big man himself? Why was he putting up barriers when there was no real need too. What was Dean really afraid of when Cas has turned out to be one of his best friends ever. Why was Dean so scared of being chosen by god to do his bidding.  Sam on the other hand saw it as praise and for once that luck was actually on their side and that something so supernatural was wanting to met them.

———————————————————————————————————–

Why did Dean find it so hard to believe in the man upstairs?

So I’ve always asked myself was Dean a religious man. We know he’s the righteous man but how religious is he really? I would have said he was curious in the faith, but don’t know if he believed that God actually existed, unlike Sam who so wanted to believe. Why, hoping that may be if might have been cured, and that there was good out there and it wasn’t all pure evil. Even though perhaps angels have turned out to be right dicks! Well most of them … I also adored how Sammy swayed his brother into believing that God found Dean to be a real important person and worthy of being SAVED! So all along the line, the boys have been important in Gods eyes, but to what extent, when we uncover the finale, I was surprised to learn that God wanted the person who performed the trials was to sacrifice their own life. So if the boys were so important was this Gods goal all along, in wanting one of the brothers dead? But why …..

The writers encouraged us to believe in Sam’s version that there was a God, and having one brother not so sure of this that he was worthy of being saved. What lead God to bring Dean back from the pit that he knew or did he know later on in the future that his rescue would be to end one of the brother’s lives? How could God consider after putting someone through what Sam went through just for the big man to end it all for him. So how does Sam now feel about God? Would this have swayed his view of the big man upstairs? Was Dean right, in having doubts in the first place.

So Bella would love to know what you all think about the boy’s faith and how they view god now as from what they did four years ago. Has their view really changed that much that they once were skeptical about angels to now living every day among them with no real fears. Was Dean’s caginess and reluctance over the top, or correct in every possible way. How would Dean’s life have ended if God had not reached out and raised Dean from the dead? Type away little ones, and transport yourselves back to season 4 and those early thoughts of our little fluffy friends, could we have managed to live without them. Are they really dicks and a pain up the rear.

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7 Comments

  1. Coming at this from a different perspective, I have never viewed the SPN universe as a “Godful” one. To me God doesn’t have anything at all to do with the choices of the Angels, Demons or the Winchesters.To me it’s all about these beings personal decisions to do bad or do good.For me God is entirely absent in this particular ‘verse and so has nothing to do with anything.
    Yes, as Cas doesn’t very often make the right choices, and often hurts those closest to him. Ala Dean… Do angels like us humans no right from wrong as they seem to make a number of poor choices, and don’t appear deliberate.

    I was never surprised to see the angels as d***s. I have never believed in them so never saw them as warm and fuzzy creatures that cared about humanity. I read the Bible and what I got from that was that they are God’s hit-men. They are soldiers meant to carry out his orders. They are not meant to care about people, just do what they are told and I got the impression from the Bible that these creatures were seriously terrifying and are nothing at all like the fat happy babies with wings most people like to think of.
    I must admit, particularly when I first saw Uriel, I thought how rude and obnoxious he was in giving his almost regimental orders and looked down on us humans 😦 Zachariah was another who didn’t like humans, but still not sure about Anna, she made love to Dean, but killed Sam, so still on the fence about her. The programming is the key with angels, which is why Cas appeals to so many as he disobeys those orders and wants to rebel and do his own thing, remembering Naomi and his back chat. Who are worse, demons or angels! 😉

    Everything that has happened to the Winchesters arose out of other beings making choices. from who their parents are to whether or not they would choose to be vessels for the Angels assigned to them. Nothing in their lives is truly left to fate, but about choice.
    Again we have a message through this show, that its about choices that beings or humans make. It seems its often about the wrong choice more so than the right one.

    Thanks for the comments,
    Love Aunty B xxxx

    Like

    1. However, the absent father theme(John) carried over into the God theme when the angel arc(Castiel and his search for God) became front and present. Then the Winchester universe expanded to include more angels. There are back-written episodes that introduce angels watching over Dean once the theme is introduced so technically angels have been in Dean’s life since the beginning but not present in the first few years of the series. God is not an element the first few years but that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t part of Kripke’s original design. This is not breaking canon, just expanding the universe as it does naturally from a physics pov and a writer’s. Freewill becomes more of a prominent theme as soon as the angel theme is developed. So yes, angels have poor skills because they are programmed and when they add to that skill set as Cas does, he becomes more empathetic to humans, but still makes some pretty bad decisions(alaSam). So angels come in a variety like an ice cream store.
      As far as Biblical use of angels, sometimes they are bearers of good news, sometimes they struggle with man, sometimes they destroy cities. From an Old Testament pov there are several levels of angels, some closer to God and yes they are pre-set to follow his orders. Lucifer would not so he was cast out. This is more New Testament than Old. The cupid type angel comes much later in the history of man and not so much biblical.

      I’m right in thinking that Eric never wanted angels on the show, so I wonder what finally persuaded him in changing his mind, as I think they couldn’t have come into the show at a better time. I think they livened it up when it was needed. They were different creatures from what we had seen before. And for Dean to be so skeptical was wonderful to see, as we knew that’s how he would react. I love how Cas does rebel, and not so many others do. This makes Cas stand out, and makes him appear much more interesting. But wasn’t it the cupid supposedly who bought John and Mary together in the first place? Also didn’t Anna say only four angels have seen god? So if god had so many close angels, why did he decide to pluck Metatron a human and use him to scribe his words when you think about it. Why didn’t he use one of his own thoroughbreds.

      So Kripke(the creator) left after season 5 except for the credit on the titles, he too is an absent”god’ considering Metatron’s rambling about stories and writers. Now Edlund is gone-another absentee. Angels are dicks in the SPN universe by programming gone wrong or bad choices and even Cas has been one by choice.

      Yeap I do miss Eric you no, the last three years are not a patch on 1-5 but I guess I’m not alone in feeling this way. No more wacky Edlund stories 😦 I will so miss his scripts. I hope in the not too distant future he makes a cameo appearance. He might not like it on Revolution and decide to come back 🙂

      Thanks for the comments,
      Love Aunty B xxxx

      Like

  2. In Houses of the Holy, Sam has faith and believes in angels only to be disillusioned to find out it is Father Gregory’s vengeful spirit. Dean has no faith. When Dean gets saved from perdition and finds out it is an angel, he believes but has doubts about God’s role, Dean is a black and white person back in season 3/4, He is pragmatic. He needs proof to believe. He lives in a cruel reality since he was a young boy. He gets further disillusioned when the angels turn out to be “dicks” and users. This does not require Dean to follow a faith and be religious. He just sees angels as supernatural beings and Cas as his friend at times. He believes in what he can see. He prays to Castiel which is not the same as praying to God where there is no response known. He prays to what he has proof of. Prayers are the last act of a desperate man(says Cas), and maybe part of Dean’s journey is to gain faith in something he doesn’t prove exists. He is waiting for the other shoe to drop, because it always does for him and Sam.
    I was surprised that the writers decided to write angels as dicks. As generally we all hope angels are the good guys and favor us. I was also surprised that he sees angels as dicks that he made a firm friend with one. I guess Cas was always a rarity one of the good guys. Yeap, Dean’s prof is visual and love that about Dean, how strong those emotions are. Its a good yard stick to follow. What else do they really have to go on? This was what made me believe so much in Dean that he found it hard to prey to something he didn’t believe in. But that embarrassment helped him in the end and now he doesn’t feel as stupid if he needs to talk to Cas in private regarding Sam!

    Sam has faith and is still not religious. He wants to believe that something is out there for the greater good especially after he kills Lilith. He is always looking for redemption. Sam pov is coming from a brighter spot than Dean as I believe Sam’s focus has been on leading “normal” life, doing normal things, and he believes in the existence of good. He has had a chance to get away from the reality of evil from time to time. Even when Dean was with Lisa, he always checked the doors and used salt as he knows the evil exists even with normal life. Dean’s poor self image makes it impossible for him to believe that he deserves anything good to happen to him as once again, it is not his experience in life. Was Dean important to God? He broke the first seal and puts an end to it, but is that God’s gospel or one written by man to explain the unknown and keep primitive people in line?
    Yes it took me a while to understand Sam’s faith as its not that cut and dried like Dean’s clearly is. Sam I think wanted to no if something supernatural was out there protecting them and as Mary said to Dean, ‘watching over them’. Theses boys are so very different …. Dean hated the thought of being singled out and feeling important to the big man, so we assume that Dean was important in Gods plans as Dean does stop the apocalypse which again the angels didn’t want to stop.

    Dean is pulled from perdition because the angels have a plan for him and Cas doesn’t know the full extent of Michael”s plan b/c at this point, Cas is still following orders and has yet to truly befriend Dean and learned to doubt(nice job teaching here, Dean). Dean’s bravura with the ladies, and other misdeeds are part of Dean’s cover as a baddass, but nothing he deserves to die for or not be forgiven. His good outweighs his bad so he ends up in Heaven various times he dies. He does believe that he will die early, sad and bloody. Season 8 does give us a different perspective about the future from Dean, but do you really think he believes it about himself or is it all Sammy?
    This is to an extent what I’ve always thought about Dean, that he’s done wrong, but the amount of good he’s done in saving people out weighs the crap. He doesn’t deserve to die, no! I get this too about Dean that he thinks he won’t live to a ripe old age with grey hair, cardigan and slippers in toe. Which is so sad 😦 Sam is in the spotlight at the moment, but that might change and not remain so much in the forefront. He never gives himself enough time to look at himself and do things for himself. I hope the writers change this pattern as not so many of us enjoyed watching caretaker Dean. It was commendable and noble of Dean, but Dean is worth much more. Sammy is a big boy now and needs to take charge and care for Dean on occasion. 🙂

    So far the angels have lost their main mission which was to be shepherds for mankind. Besides. Cas who sometimes lies, and generally makes huge errors in judgement(Sam trait) what angels have been anything but pains to Sam and Dean? The angels have lost their original programming. Biblical angels sometimes delivered good news, sometimes destroyed cities- so what are we to think? They seem to be acting beyond their scope of employment by wanting to bring on the Apocalypse and deprive Earth of hairless apes.
    Yeap, but wasn’t the angel plan all along in wanting the apocalypse to get rid of us humans? We always saw them as prats and rather selfish beings who only cared about themselves. We rarely saw them giving good news, and as you say have been nothing but pain in the ass for the boys, so what function have they really played and what have they contributed to earth if they just want to destroy us?

    Then there is the matter of Sam purifying himself with a confession- if you have no faith then to whom do you confess? There is no priest listening to Sam’s confession so is it to the God who has abandoned Heaven? How then is Sam purified to complete the last trial? He is working on faith. Dean has faith in Sam. At the end Sam has faith in Dean….that’s why the secret in season 9 is going to hurt Sam.
    This did cross my mind too about Sam’s confession as there was no priest present, and God had left the building. So would it have really worked in theory? So are you saying that both having faith in each other will result in something good/or bad? But why is this a secret worth keeping back from Sam?

    Thanks for the comments,
    Love Aunty B xxxx

    Like

    1. Just supposing here… Dean has to once again do something “hinky” to cure Sam which will piss Sam off because not only did he not seal up Hell, but Dean put himself at risk again which usually means something to tarnish his righteousness and make him feel undeserving again. So cure Sam, protect Sam= don’t tell Sam because he won’t let Dean do it for him. Or Dean has actually done the ultimate sacrifice in cutting a deal to save Sam and thus risk his own righteousness. Sam buys into Dean’s we’ll do it together and then Dean doesn’t tell him something-now wouldn’t you be pissed too? Of course, doing it together requires Dean to do something untold to Sam. Here we go again. It is circular writing and done purposefully. Angels were programmed to shepherd mankind but somehow the programming went array with the passing millennium and God’s absence/indifference. He created Man and left the angels to watch over them, with the tablets as the levers if things go wrong. It all got twisted with the civil war in Heaven. Seems like Cas is the only one who remembers the original programming at this point.


      Why do the writers keep destroying these brothers. I don’t get why they seem to think it makes good TV. That finale was superb on so many levels, and for them to turn it upside down again is getting boooorrrringgg!! Jared put so much into that scene, and for what ends, for the writers to make either brother feel worthless. Sam really will be pissed and its like yes the writers do like seeing Sam angry all the time, I do miss the old Sam. At least we hoped he was being purified it might have helped him with his anger issues, but now I doubt this thought even less. What has Dean done, I am so curious. It still makes me wonder about angels in the boys, as Dean is so like watching over Sam, and this thought spooks me. Dean always seems to no what to do and always gets it right, and Sam never does.

      So why tell Sam anything that would impede his way back to health and stop Dean from making that choice, what ever it is. Someone needs to be pissed in the bro relationship;it’s just how it goes.


      Poor Sammy, I think he needs to see a Councillor or go to anger management therapy 😉 I hope its worth the aggro Dean for your sake ….

      Awaiting the episode that goes back to 1935 and is a take off of the Wizard of Oz. Let’s see Sam as the scarecrow, Bobby as…..? Oh, just supposing here.

      This looks fun, I wonder who’s in charge of writing this one. I thought of Cas as the tin man
      or Cas in drag as Dorothy. Bobby has to be the great OZ. Wise old man and all that 😉 Sam as the scarecrow, long hair, now yes I could picture this. Oh Dean, Got to be the scarecrow and Sam the Lion more hair on a lion than a scarecrow.

      Thanks for the comments,
      Love Aunty B xxxx

      Like

      1. Is Dean the Tin Man? So who is the cowardly lion? LOL I am not looking forward to another “secret” at all.

        I thought Sam the Lion cause of the long hair, Dean as the Scarecrow Cas as Dorothy/or the tin man, or even Crowley as the tin man, and Bobby as the great OZ’ Jo would make a great Dorothy. I hate the thought of this secret unless its for a good cause, and Dean’s not done some stupid deal or similar.

        Thanks for the comments,
        Love Aunty B xxxx

        Like

        1. Well I think Sam might be wiry enough and tall to be the scarecrow but on second thought he already has a brain. it is Dean who thinks he is a grunt so maybe he needs to think he has a brain. Or Dean thinks he his tough and has no heart so Tin Man or on the other hand Castiel needs to learn about emotions. The cowardly lion– that’s a tough one-Sam’s hair is long but he already has shown his courage. I could see Charlie as Dorothy but probably a new character. Or Cas because there is no place like home(That’s Dean’s philosophy Hmmm.) And of course, Dean would not take kindly to TOTo. But there are lots of opportunities for the witch role. How about Bobby as the Wizard. Just having some fun here. Wait until the Dr. Deanlittle episode when Dean can talk to the animals. Must be loosing it- not enough SPN this week so going down the yellow brick road since the Impala cannot. LOL

          Dean would not take kindly to TOTo.
          Laugh out loud, I thought you were going to say Dean was going to be the dog!
          Dean would not take kindly to TOTo.
          He certainly wouldn’t woof, woof

          Charlie is a good choice for Dorothy although she would have to wear a wig as Dorothy wasn’t a red head he he. This is fun!

          Thanks for the comments,
          Love Aunty B xxxx

          Like

  3. Well first of all Dean was the righteous man in hell that broke the first seal and was needed to end the apocalypse-he who starts it ends it (paraphrasing). So he was important to God.
    I still cannot fathom Dean being the righteous man considering as he says the stealing, the women and drinking. It doesn’t add up. Sam’s way of thinking is more to being the righteous man than Dean. He has done so much good too in saving people and doing the right thing, so I guess this was where the writers were coming from. But there was also some controversy that John was the righteous man and that he wasn’t strong enough and caved in.

    I don’t think Dean was religious. I think he felt how could there be a God if there are so many monsters and terrible things happening? Cas says something to him like don’t you believe good things can happen to someone? And Dean says with lip quivering-not in my experience -So he had not up to that point-IMHO-believed in God. Of course the next step is how could there be angels?
    No I’ve never thought that Dean was religious either but a friend was surprised I thought this after their meeting with Joshua in heaven. I still think he has doubts though as he’s not met God, he’s always been the one to say unless I see it with my own eyes that’s my prof that they exist. He was also surprised that his brother preyed every day. So there are elements in there that I think he has a hard time even now believing, as he still doesn’t like angels either. 😉

    Thanks for the comments,
    Love Aunty B xxxx

    Like

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