There was something bugging me about the whole Gadriel/lies thing and I’ve twigged it – it’s the conversation Sam had with Dean about his soul in Appointment in Samarra.
It’s like an action replay – and we know how well that turned out.
This is surely going to raise its ugly head as part of the story line once Gadriel has been evicted? So see what comparisons you come up with within the texts as there are similarities its like they just copy and tweak, copy and tweak. I seem to recall another similar episode during season 2 have fun.
Supernatural Season 6 Appointment in Samarra Episode 11
SAM: You what?!
DEAN: Just hear me out.
SAM: I heard Cas and Crowley when they said it would either kill me or turn me to jello, Dean! I heard enough!
DEAN: Death said he can put up a wall.
SAM: A wall?
DEAN: Yes, yes, a wall –that — that, basically, you wouldn’t remember hell.
SAM: Really?
DEAN: Really.
SAM: For good? Like a cure?
DEAN: No, it’s not a cure. It…He said it could last a lifetime.
SAM: Great. So, playing pretty fast and loose with my life here, don’t you think, Dean?
DEAN: I’m trying to save your life!
SAM: Exactly, Dean! It’s my life! It’s my life, it’s my soul. And it sure as hell ain’t your head that’s gonna explode when this whole scheme of yours goes sideways!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B_R6SgUf-g
Supernatural Season 9 episode 9 – Holy Terror the store room
Sam: What’s going on? What are you doing?
Dean: I’m gonna tell you some stuff fast, its gonna piss you off.
Sam: Okay
Dean: Those Trials really mess you up
Sam: Yes I know that Dean
Dean: No, No you don’t. I mean messed you up, like almost dead. No more birthdays, you with dust to dust. Well that messed me up, so I made a move a tough move about out talking it over because you were in a coma.
Sam: What, when?
Dean: You were in the hospital they said you were gonna die,
Sam: Dean, what did you do
Dean: I let an angel in
Sam: In what
Dean: In you, he said he could heal you and he is
Sam: He’s still in me wait Dean that’s impossible that couldn’t happen. I never invited him in
Dean: I tricked you into saying yes is seemed like the only way
Sam: So again you thought I couldn’t handle something so you took over.
Dean: No I did what I had to do, you never would have agreed to it and you would have died.
Sam: Well maybe I would have liked the choice at least.
Dean: We can do this later. you can kick my ass all you want right now we’ve got bigger problems
Sam: Bigger!!!
Dean: The angel lied to me, he’s not who he said he was he said his name was Ezekiel a good guy according to Cas but its not Ezekiel.
Sam: Well then who is he
Dean: I don’t no, apparently Ezekiel is dead who ever this guy is can injure you in a heart beat if he wants to, so you’ve got to dump him
Sam: looks confused and breaths heavy
Dean: Are you hearing what I’m saying? I think your well enough now and you’ve got to expel him
Sam: doesn’t look at Dean and heads for the door
Dean: Sam, Sam! Hey Dean stops Sam
Sam: turns round and thumps Dean in the face
A Blog devoted to J2 and Friends! 
I just think that the writers are lazy and do not want to go beyond the “formula”. I have read some fantastic fan fiction that reads much better than some of the current content on TV. I was a huge fan of Buffy but I think the writers refused to expand the characters. I fear the same thing is happening with SPN as well. Why not allow Cas to remain human? Now he is returned to his former nerdy angel self. I am hoping that the writers will flesh Cas out based on his human experiences. This angelic war has been going on since season 6 and I am tired of it. Can we declare a victor and move on? I want Sam and Dean to be on the offense for once; planning the attack instead of just reacting to what happens. They have access to the MOL bunker, but have they attempted to organize the hunter community and share the wealth of info they have stumbled upon? Are they even part of that community anymore? Where is Bobby’s replacement? I know that Garth had tried to support other hunters, but where is he? I like the idea of alternate universes and when Angel and crew visited a demonic reality, those episodes allowed new characters, new abilities, and pushed the show in a more interesting direction. I love alternate universe episodes of SPN (The End and The French Mistake). I do not understand why creative people are not willing to create new stories instead of revisiting the same stories and themes thinking that the fans will not notice the recycle. Although SPN is in season 9, the original Law and Order was on TV for 20 years and Law and Order SVU is currently on season 15 and it is still one of my favorite shows. Keep the stories fresh and the fans will remain loyal.
I not sure if its laziness I think their scared. They are scared if it back fires. They have tried different ways with Sam and have not been so creative and soulless Sam in particular was cocked up badly as they didn’t really do their home work, and the actors didn’t know he was meant to be soulless. This is why I think they tend to stick to what they know, and most importantly what works. They don’t very often push those creative boundaries. When I think what they could have done with Purgatory and have Sam running top side finding ways of getting Dean out, and we were lumbard with a soap opera. So I think they try but more often than not it flops, because its not thought through properly. Stuff that could be fleshed out, very often isn’t, and could be so fantastic to watch and see unfold on screen. Dean’s depression and his drinking was dropped to back up ghost Bobby and so on. Dean has missed out on so much and so many are tiring of whats wrong with Sam and Dean propping him up. I don’t feel we do sometimes need a Bobby replacement. I really loath Garth at the best of times, and don’t see him as a capable hunter. Kevin was amazing in helping the boys out with the fake badge stuff and seemed more with it in this type of role, but they killed him off. I do however, miss the roadhouse, and what it bought to the show seeing communities talk together about monsters, and what they’ve killed, picking up knowledge along the way. A real meeting house. But they thought it was corny and dropped it. alternate universes are good idea’s. But I don’t think our writers are up to this level of sci-fi. I thought Sam’s out of characterness last season could have been mixed up in some AU type reveal but alas it was what we saw.
Thank you,
Love Aunty B xxx
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Good point! Oh I take your meaning. You guys are saying they have all these great story threads they could follow but instead they will drop those to show some fake drama /fight between the brothers- like in season 8 or do something they think is more fun instead- like Bobby’s ghost or some filler episode. These are good points.
This was why I was so mad when Dean had a real drink problem and we all thought at the time I wonder if this is going to be side-lined and used to prop up another character. Usually they moan about it being Sam in the spotlight but this was just another reason to bring back Bobby. All the times we’ve seen Dean with a drink, I kept think what an amazing story this would have been. Jensen would have knocked it out of the park. Mixed with his depression and his low self worth, which never ever really goes any where. Then according to purgatory it cleared him out of alcohol abuse any way, he was detoxed.
I’ve stopped looking for too much depth. The writers are just not very daring and I don’t even expect that level from them anymore. Since Kripke left they just aren’t that adventurous and like to play it safe. Their idea of adventure is pretty tame compared to a lot of the crazier shows on TV. They’re not bad writers but they do need to get a bit more wild. I’m talking “Changing Channels” type crazy.
This is what I’ve been thinking too, particularly after the portal stuff last season when I was convinced it rejected Cas because he wasn’t human. It still I am sure wouldn’t have let him through if the story had got this far. But I don’t think their that daring or adventurous enough to think outside that creative box. I think their scared of going there. I think we will fill this more now since Ben is no longer with us. He was a creative genius.
The show isn’t bad but I’m not looking for a soap opera really. I love the characters but when it starts getting too mushy I’m going to have to quit. In the past seasons the craziest episodes have been some of the time travel episodes and Plucky Penny-whistle and Everybody Hates Hitler. Most of the filler episode the past couple of season have been C level and not too daring. What I’m holding on to is the mythology and the characters. I still love those and find them interesting.
I love the time travel ones they are my favorites. I don’t think the later seasons are a patch on the early ones. It was so mapped out with an arc all the way through, and the mythology side was awesome. I don’t think it will get mushy as it won’t go the other way. I just want to be on the edge of my seat again, and the only episode to come close this season was the premier and Bad boys, apart from young Dean. I think Dean being in the spot light for a change was a great writing move. The mythology is my favorite area to, which was why I was so disappointed we had so many fillers and standalone’s.
Also every now and then, when I get bored or tired the writers “wow” me with a great episode like “Plucky” or “Hitler” or the last episode or “Bad Boys”, which I thought was just beautiful. So, even though it’s not as good as it once was- like seasons one threw five – the show, for me, is still worth tuning in..
Plucky or Hitler didn’t over do it for me. I find those mediocre, Bad Boys was more like it, as it had feeling, depth and it moved the story along. I don’t mind standalone’s if they add something to the arc. I guess I miss a good strong arc to get my teeth into. I thought that the premier and Devil may care were the best of the bunch and of course the mid-season finale ‘Holy Terror’. Cas’s one wasn’t too bad but a bit predictable.
Thank you,
Love Aunty B xxx
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I think the biggest difference between those 2 episodes is that Sam was soulless at the time. I think they may surprise us with Sams reaction. Maybe he will just say Dean I need some time to thinkabout this-and like a mature person will come to the conclusion that he would probably have done the same for Dean–esopecially since he now regrets not looking for him.
Me too!!
Thank you,
Love Aunty B xxx
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I will laugh my butt of if this happened. If the writers just came back and Sam acted like it was “hey!, no big whoop!”
That would be a very different angle to take actually. Dean really would be eating his words. He wouldn’t know what to say or do this time.
Thank you,
Love Aunty B xxx
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“I will laugh my butt of if this happened. If the writers just came back and Sam acted like it was “hey!, no big whoop!””
wouldnt that be a change of pace?? (-:
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I think there are a couple of points to note about this. One of the big arguments as to why it’s okay for Dean to give Sam over to Gad/Zeke is what else could he do, he can’t let Sam DIE. But Dean has been more than willing to let Sam die at least three times. In Appointment in Samara, Dean is willing to risk Sam dying by putting his soul back. They discover Sam is soulless in Family Matters and during that episode Sam goes along with Dean about trying to get his soul back. In All Dogs Go To Heaven Sam actually says he thinks it’s a good idea to get his soul back. For the next two episodes Sam and Dean work with Crowley because Crowley claims he can get Sam’s soul. In Caged Heat both Cas and Crowley tell them that Sam’s soul is so damaged that cramming it back into him will kill him. Cas “kills” Crowley and Sam says he doesn’t want his soul leading to the conversation you quote. Basically Dean decides to force Sam’s soul back into him after Sam says No Thanks. People often say “what else could he do, Sam was trying to kill Bobby without his soul” except Sam didn’t try to kill Bobby until it seemed that it was the only way to keep his soul out and to save his own life AND Bobby was working to HELP Dean shove his soul back in him, so Sam could easily view Bobby as being an accomplice in trying to kill him.
I think in fairness to Dean, he’s always tried to save Sam even with dark consequences. He wants Sam alive even though this goes against Sam’s grain most of the time. As for not wanting his soul back, that was a different Sam talking. He wasn’t in his right mind to be able to make those decisions. I think Dean just helped the process along and got Sam on the right path where he couldn’t.
Dean was also more than ready to let Sam die detoxing from the demon blood. His exact words were “At least he’ll die human”. Finally in The Man Who Knew Too Much Dean, Cas tells Dean to stand down or he will break Sam’s wall, probably killing Sam. Dean does NOT stand down and Cas breaks the wall.
These are really, really tough calls. But as Gad said to Dean he did it out of LOVE. Dean is very headstrong at times bull dozing in there just wanting to save Sam unconditionally. The demon blood was so tough on Dean, not knowing what to do and having to deal with its consequences if Sam found out. Ring any bells? With the Wall Dean was backed into a corner with Cas, and had again no real choice. Cas was tanked up and focused and not really thinking about the bigger picture.
I’m not saying that Dean was necessarily wrong in all these cases. I have never been happy with the forced detox, mostly because it also involved Dean and Bobby leaving Sam to die alone, not even standing guard by the door to be there in case of emergency. When it comes to forcing Sam’s soul back into him, I’m also uncomfortable. I have no issue with Dean getting Sam’s soul out of the Cage, if he didn’t then try to force it into Sam’s body. Ask Cas to take it to Heaven and let it find peace, fine, but at the time Soulless Sam was still pretty much following What Would Dean Do to provide a way to behave as if he had a soul. Dean always acted as if Soulless!Sam was in fact Sam, just without his soul, so he can’t say that he was doing something to someone not Sam. The wall breakage is complicated. Giving into terrorists and blackmailers is not a good thing, so I understand why he did what he did, but in the end, it boils down to Dean isn’t willing to let Sam die, unless of course he is and in all three cases Sam’s opinion was either not asked or totally ignored when Dean made his decision.
I think Sam throughout the whole saga has been the one with the most powerful story lines, and Dean has been the character to see that his brother is okay come what may. He feels the buck stops at him and if Sam dies, its on him. Dean’s always been the one with the bigger problems where Sam is concerned and finds it hard to come to the right decision where his brother is concerned. He’s caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. He’s damned if he does or doesn’t. The writers clearly pushed the brothers into corners which were very controversial and not so cut and dried and its a difficult call.
So I’m not thrilled by the idea that Dean is the one who has the right to make the choices about when and how Sam is or is not kept alive. Because his criteria often change. He wants Sam to die human, until it suits him to make Sam partially supernatural by tricking him into becoming an angel vessel. He wants Sam to live, until Sam says he doesn’t want to risk death by taking back a destroyed soul. Even now, Dean was willing to keep Sam alive with an angel in him an angel that he knew nothing about except that Cas knew the name he was given. He was willing to hide everything from Sam until suddenly it turned out that he wasn’t Zeke. As far as Dean says Gad can end Sam in a heartbeat. He has NO IDEA if Sam has been healed enough to live or not and he flat out orders Sam to dump Gad. Dean’s great “I have to keep Sam alive” gets thrown by the wayside pretty quickly when DEAN decides it’s a good idea. He isn’t asking Sam, he’s ordering him.
Dean is fully of worry. He sees red and he panics cause he knows he’s gonna loose Sam. Alarm bells kick off which spur him on to make these wired choices to keep Sam safe. We know how it disturbs him and we know what lengths he will go to keep Sam alive even though it goes clearly against Sam’s grain. I admire Dean for going out of his way to protect Sam even though not sometimes thinking of his needs and wants.
I think that Sam should have been given the choice from the beginning as to whether or not he wanted to be cured by angel possession. I do think that the excuse that Dean had no choice because he can’t let Sam die is not really supported by Dean’s past and present actions. Dean won’t let Sam die, unless he changes his mind for any of a number of reasons.
My only argument with Sam was that he was in a coma without any real say so over his own rights he couldn’t make that call, so Dean jumped in and made it for him. How can a person who is powerless to speak say he has the say so. Its an impossible situation for both of them to be in and it really tugs me every which way. I think if I were Sam I would be upset if my brother didn’t do anything for me. I know and understand Deans love for Sam and the power he goes to to see Sam safe.
Thank you,
Love Aunty B xxx
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I see where everyone is getting hung up. It’s the point that every time Sam is either dead or just about, Dean is the one that jumps in with his unlimited/ lifetime Platinum Diamond encrusted Hail Mary Save Sam Card. It’s understandable, on the surface it appears Dean plays fast and loose with Sams life…lives? Frankly it amuses me, this is a show that has either one or more of the main characters die yearly, and we get bent out of shape on the semantics of the how that character is saved and by whom. Yes, Sam has never jumped through hoops, dealt his soul, made threats, deals, or pacts with demons/Angels to save Dean, right?? Did you forgot Sam had searched, hunted and cornered Loki aka Gabriel to save Dean from dying on Mystery Spot. Gabriel’s way to make Sam deal with Dean inevitable death, and learn to accept it. Yea, That worked. He tried to make a deal with EVERY crossroad demon to save Dean from Hell, but not one would deal with him. Oh and that is the ONLY reason he even talked or was willing to work with Ruby, all to find a way to prevent Dean from going to Hell in the first place. Both Brothers have gone to hell and back (literally) to save each other. Personally, I would’ve loved to go to these lengths to save a beloved family member from death. Wouldn’t you?
But this has always been the premise of the show any way, one brother gets into trouble and the other saves the damsel. Its part of the course that it happens in every other, other episode that a brother is kidnapped by a monster. The only time this cycle was actually broken was last season when Sam was supposedly being ‘MATURE’ in NOT looking for Dean. Whether the writers were trying to be brave here remains to be seen as clearly 99.9% of the time Sam has looked. I think under any circumstances we would search and do anything for our loved one too. I think they did Sam a dis-service in not looking for Dean, and it did more damage as people didn’t really understand what the writers were trying to achieve. I think personally it was a wrong move that backfired.
Thank you,
Love Aunty B xxx
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As someone who has lost many people that I love, and respected their wishes in the matter of treatment to not prolong life, that is a fairly insulting thing to say. I am bowing out of this discussion. Just for the record the answer is an absolute NO I would neither want nor take those kinds of steps. And although you obviously don’t believe it, I LOVED the people I lost.
Percy I can’t speak for Jenks but I don’t think she meant any harm. We all have different views and sometimes disagree. One thing I will say about this blog, is that we all do get on fairly well most of the time. So I’m sorry if you’ve been caught in the middle.
Thank you,
Love Aunty B xxx
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I never implied you didn’t love nor not care for your loved ones. It was a simple question, nothing in my comment is offending or insulting. So I don’t get why you got all bent out of shape about it.
Sam wasn’t ready to die…if he really was ready to go on to the big happy hunting grounds or where ever Deceased Hunters go, he would have NEVER had said yes to Dean in the first place. So Sams choice in the matter of his Death was NEVER negated.
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Oh, there is no EDIT on comments as that last sentence was meant to Written as..
Personally I would’ve loved to go to of the lengths they have to save a beloved family member.
I wouldn’t sell my soul, but would I have asked a prick Angel to heal or at the very least put my beloved peep out of their prolonged misery, Hell Yea, I would have in a heartbeat.
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SOME LENGTHS…jeez epic fail
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“Frankly it amuses me, this is a show that has either one or more of the main characters die yearly, and we get bent out of shape on the semantics of the how that character is saved and by whom.”
So true!
That is true actually.
Thank you,
Love Aunty B xxx
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Okay, everybody,step back and take a deep breath. Maybe its time for you to take a break from the show. You seem very unhappy with a lot of things that have been happening since the beginning of the show.
Dean has always acted as if hes known what’s best for Sam( and usually only convenient to himself.) Is it incredibly annoying? Yeah! Has he always played fast and loose with whatever rules he likes to suit himself? Sure! But I’m not sweating that because the show is much more problematic than how Dean is behaving conveniently to the plot.( He seems to swing back and forth when needed.)
When your frustration with a show starts to outweigh your enjoyment its time to rethink what are you getting out of watching the show. Ive seen some of your other posts expressing your frustration and why and you’ve got some seriously valid points (I hope you stay and make them.) Nobody says you cant criticize the show but here’s the thing. No one knows what you like about the show. We all know what you hate but until you tell us why you keep watching all we can think is that you dislike the show but are reluctant to tear yourself away.
For the record I see your point. Its very valid but so far none of the points you’ve made invalidate my enjoyment of the show. The show is problematic in many ways, racial, sexual, the show has been playing around with dubious consent since first season and occasionally laughing about that. Its depiction of the fans, its depiction of black men, and its treatment of women are all problematic but I’m not watching the show for that.
. As a WoC all these things bother me but I’m committed and I still get enjoyment out of it and the brothers relationship because for me thats the center of the show. I still have hope about them growing up and maturing. I have hope about where its going and Im deeply nosy about where its going. Also as a WOC and a geek Im very used to none of the shows on television addressing any of those concerns as all of them are aimed at white,cisgender,males. When it finally works my last nerve Ill just stop looking at it. No harm, no foul.
What I hear you saying is you’re frustrated about long established things on the show. Or is it just this season giving you fits? And if so, why this season in particular compared to other seasons?
For the Record iagree with you. Id never sell my soul to save a family member. I think that’s crazyeven if I lived in a ‘verse where that was possible. But for me that e tremendous disfunction is fascinating. I also don’t think Jenks meant to say you don’t love your family.
So take time, cool off and come back and lets dialogue. I’m curious as to where you’re going with this line of thought and how
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And how you feel the show should change direction. What is keeping you watching.
Also you have every right ot be frustrated with a show and to decide what level of frustration finally makes you stop watching or caring about the show. You feel how you feel. I’m just trying to understand it because I’m coming at it from a completely different direction than most of the viewers of this show and I have found that their concerns are not my concerns.
I only brought up my reasons for loving the show because as ablack woman and a geek I’m very used to all of the things I love in the media being problematic. Everything from. Star Wars to LOTR to this show has issues I dislike but I love these things anyway.
In general I try not to insert myself into discussions involving the shows problems about gender or race. I stay out of it because really? What am I gonna say? This show and just about everything on Tv is made by whites, aimed at white males and all the things they care about, while addressing absolutely zero of any of my real -world concerns. I don’t even expect them to do that and am pleasantly surprised when it happens. Ive had many long years of practice sieving out the tidbits I like and ignoring everything else about a show or movie. So that’s the direction that I’m approaching this from.
I know absolutely nothing at all about you or why this season in particular is getting up your nose but Id like to know what direction you’re coming from and what you expect from the show.
Oh this is directed at Percysowner.(Hi!)
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Season 7: Sam has not slept. He is in a psychiatric hospital being tormented by his hallucination(?) of Lucifer. Dean comes to visit him. Sam tells Dean he knew that this was going to happen and he is resigned to die or simply go to jello.(and yet he is still a functioning hunter) Dean goes out and finds Cas as Emanuel (and Meg re-enters). Dean feels this one is on him so he has to fix it. Our current situation: Not only this Sam situation but Kevin’s end are “on Dean.” This time Dean is even more devastated if that is possible so what will he do to 1. find Sam 2. fix it 3. punish himself. 4. Re-focus on hunting things, saving people.
I would say without doubt 1. find Sam, Dean would do this time after time…
Sam could not expel Meg when he was possessed by her without Dean’s intervention. Dean has to reach in and find Sam- even if Sam dies, he has to be human-that’s been Dean’s responsibility since the fire. The consistency of the repetition tells me that the characters are keep true to their original conception by Kripke. When they appear to be out of character it is usually to pull them back into the family business while allowing some growth as humans. Repetition and parallel stories have been part of the SPN formula and we must like it, since we are in season 9. Both Jared and Jensen continue to astound with great performances. I re-watched season 7 episode where Bickleberry real estate agent is a Leviathan. While not a favorite season for many of us, I watched J2 closely. Fine acting makes you forget that it is scripted. Sometimes it seems more real that the current batch of reality shows. Jared’s reactions to Dean’s lines are worth the watch and Jensen delivers his lines whether funny(to Frank in the phone booth) or devastated at finding Frank’s trailer trashed with blood all around. So while J2 are repeating the characters as well, each episode demonstrates their acting abilities. So repeated patterns with twists are comfortable for this viewer.
I so get this but sometimes we do still sense they are OOC and can’t get our heads around it. You know which I’m referring too last season. But 99.9% I agree it is true to Eric’s original format. You appear to be re-watching the same area’s as me as I’ve just watched this. I thought Joy was really great. I am looking at scripts more closely now, just to see if there is patterns and connections forming as you say we tend to watch more closely at the acting and at the plot. But I just as much look at expressions and body language which is a new fascination with me. Particularly since Gad understanding when he was and wasn’t. Good work as always.
Thank you,
Love Aunty B xxx
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I’m good with that too. Although I would stress repeated patterns with growth of the characters. I do have to be able to recognize some of their earlier selves in later versions and I’m usually able to see how someone ‘s behavior can be very different from before and still be in character. I believe there are very few episodes where they aren’t. As long as I’m able to square their current motivations for doing something with previous motivations, I’m good.
^^This. As long as I can see the characters moving forward and going some where I am all for it. When its out of the blue and a total change that I don’t get I then struggle with it. Simply because I am use to an old formula.
Thank you,
Love Aunty B xxx
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